Author Topic: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race  (Read 259392 times)

ukgm

  • Teahupoo Status
  • ******
  • Posts: 1255
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #300 on: April 23, 2018, 04:24:52 AM »
No, I didn’t misunderstand at all. You just didn’t think carefully enough about what I was saying.

Not at all. You said "Ok, I’ll say it again: stability comes from what is in the water, not what is out of it." You made a strawman argument. We described when the board rolls in actual use so when (or if - depending on the paddler) higher sidewalls engage in the fluid, (not when its just sat there with the sidewalls high and dry). I agree that if the walls don't get wet, it won't make any difference. You get this exact scenario as a design feature in ocean ski design.

BTW, the attitude isn't necessary for what is only a friendly discussion.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 04:33:27 AM by ukgm »

photofr

  • Peahi Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 771
  • Dakine… fun
    • View Profile
    • Extreme Outdoor Photography
    • Email
Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #301 on: April 23, 2018, 04:55:30 AM »
I agree that the sidewalls can play an important part in secondary stability. Sure, they are mostly out of the water, so sidewalls (out of the water) do not count for primary stability. However, as soon as the board starts to roll, sidewall HEIGHT and ANGLE matter tremendously in obtaining that secondary stability.

Back in the days, we'd place our surfskis on their respective sidewalls in order to grain stability while on a run - DW. Choosing the angle was an art in itself. Amazing stability gain was achieved by this - secondary stability.

Personally, primary stability is what I prefer... though to each his/her own. For me, primary stability let's me find "my spot" from the second I get onboard - no pun intended. Speed and high RPM is where I gain secondary stability. Therefore, if I had to choose, I'd go with great primary stability, and below average secondary (hardly any sidewalls to speak of) for the added benefit of not having added surface area to catch wind. This is yet again, super personal... as there's no right and wrong here.

To claim that sidewalls are not going to and will not ever provide additional stability seems incorrect.
Nelo SUP - 14' x 23"
Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"

photofr

  • Peahi Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 771
  • Dakine… fun
    • View Profile
    • Extreme Outdoor Photography
    • Email
Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #302 on: April 23, 2018, 05:00:50 AM »
On a completely different note: here's some feedback from the board...
1. My fellow paddlers are having a hard time keeping up with my new board.
2. No one has made it in front of my board yet.
3. I am obviously more rested during and after each and every single paddle. I can tell because I am all chilled while paddling.
4. It is very clear to me that each of the paddlers are now struggling to keep up - without a single exception. This is clear to me because they are all out of breathe, FOR THE FIRST TIME.
5. I have not been out of breathe a single time since I got this board - while paddling with my buddies.

I am really appreciating the glide - and that's just an understatement.
Nelo SUP - 14' x 23"
Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"

ukgm

  • Teahupoo Status
  • ******
  • Posts: 1255
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #303 on: April 23, 2018, 05:33:47 AM »
I agree that the sidewalls can play an important part in secondary stability. Sure, they are mostly out of the water, so sidewalls (out of the water) do not count for primary stability. However, as soon as the board starts to roll, sidewall HEIGHT and ANGLE matter tremendously in obtaining that secondary stability.

Back in the days, we'd place our surfskis on their respective sidewalls in order to grain stability while on a run - DW. Choosing the angle was an art in itself. Amazing stability gain was achieved by this - secondary stability.

To claim that sidewalls are not going to and will not ever provide additional stability seems incorrect.

I completely agree.

(We used to do this as a drill in our surfski's back in my lifeguarding days. Once you know where the edge is you can feel the rising rate of the secondary buoyancy kick in as you lean the ski over and the higher section of the sidewall engages in the water..... until it doesn't..... and then you're out !)

burchas

  • Custom Built
  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 2508
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #304 on: April 23, 2018, 06:14:03 AM »
Imagine sidewalls 6ft high. Would the board be more stable? Try it and see.

Not really a valid argument. I'll go the other way... Imagine no sidewalls at all.
Would the board be less stable? And yes, we are talking about this specific design ;)
in progress...

Luc Benac

  • Teahupoo Status
  • ******
  • Posts: 1872
  • Super Natural British Columbia
    • View Profile
    • When not paddling...
    • Email
Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #305 on: April 23, 2018, 07:32:00 AM »
I agree that the sidewalls can play an important part in secondary stability. Sure, they are mostly out of the water, so sidewalls (out of the water) do not count for primary stability. However, as soon as the board starts to roll, sidewall HEIGHT and ANGLE matter tremendously in obtaining that secondary stability.

Back in the days, we'd place our surfskis on their respective sidewalls in order to grain stability while on a run - DW. Choosing the angle was an art in itself. Amazing stability gain was achieved by this - secondary stability.

To claim that sidewalls are not going to and will not ever provide additional stability seems incorrect.

I believe that some top users and proponents of dugouts for fast down-winding have been mentioning this to be part of their strategy. I am slowly trying to get into it but not the intuitive thing to do on a SUP :-)

I completely agree.

(We used to do this as a drill in our surfski's back in my lifeguarding days. Once you know where the edge is you can feel the rising rate of the secondary buoyancy kick in as you lean the ski over and the higher section of the sidewall engages in the water..... until it doesn't..... and then you're out !)
Sunova Allwater 14'x25.5" 303L Viento 520
Sunova Torpedo 14'x27" 286L Salish 500
Naish Nalu 11'4" x 30" 180L Andaman 520
Sunova Steeze 10' x 31" 150L
Blackfish Paddles

yugi

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 2228
    • View Profile
Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #306 on: April 23, 2018, 08:06:50 AM »
...
 I'll go the other way... Imagine no sidewalls at all.
...

Got a board like that! Love it.

burchas

  • Custom Built
  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 2508
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #307 on: April 23, 2018, 08:28:26 AM »
I believe that some top users and proponents of dugouts for fast down-winding have been mentioning this to be part of their strategy. I am slowly trying to get into it but not the intuitive thing to do on a SUP :-)

Definitely a good strategy, both upwind and downwind. Digging into a bump in-front of you side ways really helps to maintain speed
and avoid pearling. Works very well for me upwind and eliminates nose slap. Not quite there downwind yet but seen it in action an
it's a real boon.  The great secondary stability sidewalls provide is nice feature to have for this technique.
in progress...

burchas

  • Custom Built
  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 2508
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #308 on: April 23, 2018, 09:53:34 AM »
...
 I'll go the other way... Imagine no sidewalls at all.
...

Got a board like that! Love it.

pictures or it never happened  ;D
in progress...

yugi

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 2228
    • View Profile
Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #309 on: April 23, 2018, 10:10:15 AM »
.

Area 10

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 4057
    • View Profile
Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #310 on: April 23, 2018, 10:31:14 AM »
Look, IMO you guys are conflating two things: a low standing area, and deep rails. It’s the low standing area that adds most stability. If you had an Ace but it had no dugout it would be crazy unstable! But in order to have a very low standing area you have to have high(ish) sidewalks or the the board will fill up with water.

Many surf SUPs that are fairly low volume can feel surprisingly stable because the rider is close to water level. Yet they have virtually no “sidewall “.

You are able to paddle a board on its rail if it has a dugout, but the main reason why you can do this is because you have a low CoG. You are doing this on a surfski because you are sitting low. If you were sitting high and did it you’d tip over.

So it’s not the high sidewalls that are giving the stability, it’s mainly the low standing area. The sidewalls allow you to have a low standing area (without getting swamped). So I think you are putting the cart before the horses.


burchas

  • Custom Built
  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 2508
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #311 on: April 23, 2018, 11:01:10 AM »

lol. If you have one to spare, I want one of those as well.
I could see why you love it, it's a hell of a ride ;D
in progress...

burchas

  • Custom Built
  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 2508
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #312 on: April 23, 2018, 11:14:20 AM »
The sidewalls allow you to have a low standing area (without getting swamped). So I think you are putting the cart before the horses.

"Without getting swamped" is the key phrase here. Once water starts wrapping around your board and deck while in motion it can and will
send you swimming. The existence of these sidewalls or fat rails is what helping you and the extra volume on the rail always helps with
stability.

It's true, you can't put the cart before the horses, but on the other hand, you can't separate the cart from the horses either ;)
in progress...

ukgm

  • Teahupoo Status
  • ******
  • Posts: 1255
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #313 on: April 24, 2018, 01:39:46 AM »
Look, IMO you guys are conflating two things: a low standing area, and deep rails. It’s the low standing area that adds most stability.

I agree with you but that's a strawman again that people are taking this discussion down. I'm not sure how we've digressed into arguing about the merits of the design of board X vs design of board type Y. The low standing area is a red herring as it is a static quality by setting the baseline level of whatever the perceived stability is. However, secondary stability is a dynamic quality since its only really a quality once/if the board rolls. The question is whether the higher sidewall enters the water and affects this stability. I'm saying yes - it has to from a point of physics as the form and forces are both being changed in that moment. The relative distance of your feet to the waterline isn't (probably) changing when this happens so any dugout discussion isn't relevant (other than to agree with you that's its obvious that dug outs provide extra stability by lowering the centre of gravity in the main).

If a higher sidewall enters the water, it will change the perceived quality of stability - but as you said before, this is only a factor if it does that (and there is obviously a reasonable limit to how high this should be).
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 01:44:25 AM by ukgm »

ukgm

  • Teahupoo Status
  • ******
  • Posts: 1255
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race
« Reply #314 on: April 24, 2018, 01:47:32 AM »
I agree that the sidewalls can play an important part in secondary stability. Sure, they are mostly out of the water, so sidewalls (out of the water) do not count for primary stability. However, as soon as the board starts to roll, sidewall HEIGHT and ANGLE matter tremendously in obtaining that secondary stability.


This. ^

This is it in a nutshell. The relative position of your feet to the waterline doesn't affect this (i.e. whether you are on a dugout or not is a different discussion entirely). This is why higher sidewalls can be useful - even if they are not initially in the water.

 


SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2024, SimplePortal