Author Topic: 2016 Infinity Blackfish 14 x 27  (Read 69192 times)

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Re: 2016 Infinity Blackfish 14 x 27
« Reply #120 on: August 17, 2017, 01:18:50 PM »
His distance per stroke is the same as mine would likely be on that board (I pretty much always seem to get 9ft/stroke almost no matter what 14 I'm on) but I usually average 49 strokes/minute over an hour. So, maybe he was facing tougher conditions than I'm thinking about.

Luc Benac

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Re: 2016 Infinity Blackfish 14 x 27
« Reply #121 on: August 17, 2017, 01:25:58 PM »
His distance per stroke is the same as mine would likely be on that board (I pretty much always seem to get 9ft/stroke almost no matter what 14 I'm on) but I usually average 49 strokes/minute over an hour. So, maybe he was facing tougher conditions than I'm thinking about.

I do about 3.4 m per stroke average and I am a terrible paddler with only 36 stroke per minutes
36x3.4x60=7.34 km/h which is about what I do

He was doing 52x2.7x60=8.3 km/h
« Last Edit: August 17, 2017, 01:29:35 PM by Luc Benac »
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Re: 2016 Infinity Blackfish 14 x 27
« Reply #122 on: August 17, 2017, 06:51:05 PM »
36 spm is a pretty leisurely pace, Luc. Have you tried shortening your stroke and increasing your cadence (and making the return speed much faster than the stroke speed)? It's surprising how many more strokes per min you can squeeze in if you really concentrate on a quick return. It's too easy to fall into a stroke rhythm where almost equal time is spent on the return as is spent with the blade in the water. But the return can obviously be made much faster. It takes a bit of concentration, but it does make a noticeable difference to average speed, I've found, with very little extra physical effort.

Luc Benac

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Re: 2016 Infinity Blackfish 14 x 27
« Reply #123 on: August 17, 2017, 07:50:03 PM »
Not yet. I have been following the advice of my coach to paddle at very low rate (i.e. 30 stroke/min) while I am changing my stroke to go back to something more efficient for longer paddle i.e. 12 km and over. I do recover fairly quick but take my time to setup and catch.
I guess that once the technique is starting to stuck, I will have to increase my rate.
If I can keep the same distance per stroke and go past 40 stroke/m, I should be in good shape.
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Rideordie

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Re: 2016 Infinity Blackfish 14 x 27
« Reply #124 on: August 17, 2017, 09:15:03 PM »
Tried the large twins with the ventral for a kicker today.  Upwind/cross wind for a timed mile 4.9 average 5.4 max.  Coming back straight upwind (it shifted) when wind was about 10 mph.  Board was rock solid stable, but felt very draggy and slow.  I paddled that way for quite a while just recovering a bit, but I eventually stepped way forward (as Bill suggested)  to lift the tail.  MUCH better.  Burchas is right.  Positioning on the board is super critical to performance. 

So coming in on the home stretch I decided to sprint a bit even though I was tired form the heat (index over 100).  It was flat with wind from the side.  I was ridiculously far forward and the nose started spraying water like crazy.  i moved back just slightly and kept on paddling just to see what it would register. It was 26 second sprint average 5.8 with max at 6.0.  That's pretty damn fast for me even if it was only a short run.  Makes no sense that the board would be that fast while spraying that much water off the nose.  The stability of the board with the fins allows you to put a ridiculous amount of power on the blade without getting out of shape.  My xTuff(s) shaft is pretty stiff once it locks, but today I felt either the shaft  just bending over like a spring.  NEVER happens.  I felt like I was still accelerating when I finally let off and stopped the watch.  I checked the chart and that did seem to be the case.  Seems like there is no limit to how fast you can go if you have the motor. 

I really am beginning to sense the performance potential in this board.  I am also sure that it is a complicated tool that will take more time than usual to master and tweak to get the most out of it.  I was using a Konihi 95, which does not seem to be the bast for high cadence.  I am going to try my Mana 90 that I never use.  I decided some time ago that the Konihi 95 was faster for me as a power paddler.  However, as all of you have said, it seems this board demands a higher cadence.  So maybe I can improve further with the early catch and power it offers.  For me the Konihi, makes the power a little later in the stroke.  It has just been too hot to do my usual 6 mile training runs.  With the heat index well into the triple digits around here you have to be careful not to over do it and have a heat stroke. Once it cools a bit, I can get better data.  Will mount the Speed Coach too.                           
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PonoBill

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Re: 2016 Infinity Blackfish 14 x 27
« Reply #125 on: August 17, 2017, 09:49:44 PM »
Trim the twins down and you'll get another bump in speed. I think you'd also be faster with a Konihi 84 if you get a good catch. I find a pretty big speed difference between the Konihi 84 and the 95. Silly number, the 84 is five percent or more faster, but you have to concentrate on the stroke and keep up the cadence.  I don't use my 95 at all anymore. I still have a Mana 90, and it's fast too, but I need to get the smaller Mana. This Dave Kalama/Johnny Puakea stroke is a big deal for me. It's going to take me a year to do it consistently, but it's always faster and it gets me into bumps and waves I'd otherwise miss.

Actually, both of them are passing on the evolving Tahitian strokes, a suitable source since the Tahitians are the worlds fastest paddlers by a long shot. Someone pointed out recently that in a typical race in Tahiti the top 25 6-man canoes finish about 10-15 minutes apart. When they send one of their top boats to complete somewhere they generally finish 20-30 minutes ahead of second place. Good thing they don't send all 25.

It's not really a cadence issue for me, it's catch and where the power is. I do try to be slow in the water and fast in the air, which is much more feasible with the 84, and that picks up the stroke rate. I try to match my cadence to the speed I'm maintaining with my board. If I'm seeing 4.5 MPH I hold about 35, when I see 5mph I pick it up to 40. If you get a good catch and your blade speed is fractionally higher than board speed you don't have much slip, and you get that great gliding feeling, easy to maintain.

I use a 100Flex shaft until my shoulders start bitching then go back to the xTuf(s). I don't see any speed difference with the xTuf, and I think I actually get a better catch since the blade hesitates while the shaft loads up, but I like the feel of the 100Flex.

I always have water spraying off the rails up front. Getting the board flat in the water is critical for any board. It's the main reason I don't like 14's. Tough to trim for heavier guys.

Riordie, sound like your coach has been listening to Johnny Puakea.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2017, 10:02:12 PM by PonoBill »
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Rideordie

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Re: 2016 Infinity Blackfish 14 x 27
« Reply #126 on: August 18, 2017, 04:33:19 AM »
Thanks for the wise words Bill. I get my coaching on line from you and the rest of the gang. Not as fast as I want to be yet. And that is a good thing. Still have a fire in my belly. I like to call it a state of constructive discontent. I would be concerned if I was complacent and did not care. I will try the Mana next and see what that brings.
2021 SIC RS 14 x 24.5
Naish Glide 14 (v2)
SIC X-14 SCC  
KeNalu Konihi 95 xTuf(s)
KeNalu Mana 90 100 Flex

burchas

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Re: 2016 Infinity Blackfish 14 x 27
« Reply #127 on: August 18, 2017, 04:58:14 AM »
I have a feeling you'll do better with the Mana, I think it will allow you to maintain
a higher cadence more easily than the Konihi. I compared the two (82 vs 84) and
it was a big difference for me. The 82 just felt effortless for my stroke style I'm actually
thinking about getting the 82 as an all-arounder paddle to change things up from time
to time from my ZRE.
in progress...

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Re: 2016 Infinity Blackfish 14 x 27
« Reply #128 on: August 18, 2017, 05:13:01 AM »
Not yet. I have been following the advice of my coach to paddle at very low rate (i.e. 30 stroke/min) while I am changing my stroke to go back to something more efficient for longer paddle i.e. 12 km and over. I do recover fairly quick but take my time to setup and catch.
I guess that once the technique is starting to stuck, I will have to increase my rate.
If I can keep the same distance per stroke and go past 40 stroke/m, I should be in good shape.
Well, I've just listened to that Johnny Puakea podcast, and he says that on a SUP he paddles about 38 spm. So maybe it's actually me that should slow my cadence down, rather than you who should speed it up :)

Luc Benac

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Re: 2016 Infinity Blackfish 14 x 27
« Reply #129 on: August 18, 2017, 07:25:47 AM »
I have a feeling you'll do better with the Mana, I think it will allow you to maintain
a higher cadence more easily than the Konihi. I compared the two (82 vs 84) and
it was a big difference for me. The 82 just felt effortless for my stroke style I'm actually
thinking about getting the 82 as an all-arounder paddle to change things up from time
to time from my ZRE.

I use my Mana 82 with the Whiplash and my Mana 90 with the Ace-GT and downwinding.
The Mana 82 with the Ace-Gt looks like blip in the data or the UL really needs the bigger blade.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2017, 07:29:48 AM by Luc Benac »
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Luc Benac

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Re: 2016 Infinity Blackfish 14 x 27
« Reply #130 on: August 18, 2017, 07:35:54 AM »
Not yet. I have been following the advice of my coach to paddle at very low rate (i.e. 30 stroke/min) while I am changing my stroke to go back to something more efficient for longer paddle i.e. 12 km and over. I do recover fairly quick but take my time to setup and catch.
I guess that once the technique is starting to stuck, I will have to increase my rate.
If I can keep the same distance per stroke and go past 40 stroke/m, I should be in good shape.
Well, I've just listened to that Johnny Puakea podcast, and he says that on a SUP he paddles about 38 spm. So maybe it's actually me that should slow my cadence down, rather than you who should speed it up :)

Well my coach is Norman Hann https://normhann.com/. One of the very best paddler in Canada and a strong long distance paddler (Second on the Yukon Quest right after Bart). So I do trust him :-) I believe that he has given a stronger fundation to my stroke to build upon and improve the speed over the next years.
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Eagle

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Re: 2016 Infinity Blackfish 14 x 27
« Reply #131 on: August 18, 2017, 11:46:54 AM »
Yeah would say Norm is one of -> if not "the" best paddler round these parts.  Real nice guy who has proven he has top endurance in Yukon and M2O.  He even bested DW specialist Jeremy which is no easy feat.

https://normhann.com/2013/07/training-for-molokai2oahu/
Fast is FUN!   8)
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Re: 2016 Infinity Blackfish 14 x 27
« Reply #132 on: August 18, 2017, 11:54:21 AM »
Wow, how marvellous to have such a knowledgeable coach.

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Re: 2016 Infinity Blackfish 14 x 27
« Reply #133 on: August 18, 2017, 12:06:21 PM »
Caught a ride in his truck after a DW run and talked to him about that M2O race.  He told me there was no way he could keep up with Connor at all.  Said the top echelon simply are on a different planet.  So really can appreciate how fast those guys like Boothy Kai Travis etc must paddle.  Really is kinda mind boggling as Norm is freaking fast already!
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Re: 2016 Infinity Blackfish 14 x 27
« Reply #134 on: August 18, 2017, 12:28:37 PM »
I whole heartedly agree with PBill's observations and numbers. My numbers have been very similar to his, with my 5.1-5.2MPH at 43-44 strokes per minute on my BF:

"It's not really a cadence issue for me, it's catch and where the power is. I do try to be slow in the water and fast in the air, which is much more feasible with the 84, and that picks up the stroke rate. I try to match my cadence to the speed I'm maintaining with my board. If I'm seeing 4.5 MPH I hold about 35, when I see 5mph I pick it up to 40. If you get a good catch and your blade speed is fractionally higher than board speed you don't have much slip, and you get that great gliding feeling, easy to maintain. "

And with the good catch/slow in water/fast in air I can consistently get 11ft per stroke with this approach, and on occasion, with pristine conditions and better than average concentration on my part, 12ft per stroke comes about in the data readouts.

The method is distinctly counter-intuitive, but the numbers don' lie.
2017 Infinity Blackfish custom 14x26 280L
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